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Sharing the insights I discover as I explore and experience the mystery that is our reality. Join me in my journey and share yours.




Monday, April 30, 2012

Journey for Japa Beads: My Visit to a Hare Krishna Temple







The quick and restless energy of anticipation danced across my consciousness as I turned into the driveway of an inauspicious yellow house set in the suburbs of East Harford. Above the doorway read "Hare Krishna". I drove down the driveway and parked in the back. The sun broke through white clouds, warming my skin and spirit as I helped my son out of the car. We noticed a generous-sized garden, earth turned over and tilled, fertile and moist; earth's womb promising to birth fruit to come. Already some vegetables could be seen that had been planted. Leaves reflecting the day's brilliance.


Since taking on the practice of mantram repetition a few months ago I have found myself diving deeper and expanding wider spiritually. There has been so much I've wished to share here on what I've experienced but I've had little opportunity to really sit down and write uninterrupted lately.

The more I practice repeating my mantram the more it rises up spontaneously throughout my day, anchoring me to the present. There are still unguarded moments, though, when I get swept up in the turbulence around me and react in ways I regret later, having allowed my emotions to drive my actions. I've been trying to come up with ways in which I can remember repeating my mantram even more. Especially at times when I feel I am at a crossroads and can choose either peace or offense as a reaction. It is my intention to sow seeds of light, of peace, of love. For my intentions to reflect the beautiful prayer of St. Francis of Assisi, "Lord, let me be an instrument of your peace; where there is hate, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon...".



I've been intrigued by mala beads lately. After reading a bit about them and watching some YouTube videos on the various philosophies behind them and their use, I decided that they were a spiritual tool worth trying out. The use of mala, or japa beads, doesn't align exactly with the teachings of Eknath Easwaran, teachings of which I have been using primarily to learn passage meditation and mantram repetition, but I figured I'd give it a go anyways.


Mala, or japa beads, or japa mala beads (seems like everyone has a different way of referring to them)  have 108 beads and are used very similarly from what I understand in the way that a rosary is used. They are designed so that the practitioner repeats 100 mantras and the 8 additional beads are to make up for potential mistakes made.   One starts at the bead to the left of a large bead, called the guru bead, which is not counted, and goes bead by bead counter clockwise, repeating their mantram with each bead either silently or outloud until they get to the end. There are different approaches on how to hold the beads while meditating but all generally agree that the index (or pointer) finger is not to come in contact with the beads at all for the index finger is associated with the ego.

There is a store I have found recently that sells them but they were quite expensive so I did a little research online and found that a shop inside a Hare Krishna temple sells them for much less. In fact, I was really impressed by the prices of all that they sold in their shop. So, I contacted the temple via email to see when it was open and set up an appointment to stop by. 



So, here I was walking up to a Hare Krishna temple with my four year old son in tow. I  wasn't sure what quite to expect but when the door opened and kind eyes greeted me I knew there was no reason to feel unease.  After removing our shoes we walked in. My host, Jiva, showed me their temple, a life sized wax statue of the founder of the Hare Krishna movement, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada,  sat erect in the center along one side of the wall. If I hadn't already looked up some information about the Hare Krishnas that might have taken me aback a bit, having come from a Christian background I'm not used to seeing such things. Along another wall was an elaborate display of Hindu deities, colorful and ornate features almost overwhelming the senses with their elaborate designs. So much to look at and notice and take in!


We were next led into the little shop they have inside the temple. Japa mala beads hung on the wall and the shop was filled with collections of incense and other items in which devotees might find helpful in their practices...including books, lots of books! My son was a bit clingy at first but when Jiva's husband came in and showed him his IPad he was sold and sat on the floor enjoying a game with him. That gave me lots of space and time in which I could ask Jiva all kinds of questions which she graciously answered.  About japa beads, how to use them, about her beliefs, especially regarding  her concept of what and who God is. 


I have much to share about what the Hare Krishnas believe and will leave that for the next post, this is kind of an intro to what will be a series as I learn more about their beliefs. One belief that I really appreciated that Jiva expressed was the fact that everyone is worshiping the same God. No matter what religion one ascribes to, no matter what packaging one's beliefs are wrapped in, what lies at the core is all the same. I share that same belief. Another belief that really resonated deeply with me was their stance on nonviolence and the fact that the Hare Krishnas put an emphasis on vegetarianism in their practices. I have been long perplexed by the fact that so many others that meditate and seek God and express the beliefs of nonviolence still eat the flesh of other sentient beings.

The Hare Krishnas are most notably known for the chant they repeat and sing. In the post that will follow this one I will go into more detail  about their chant but for now I will just merely relate it:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare



Upon leaving Jiva offered a bundle of incense that had been blessed and burnt at their alter and put it in my bag as well as packed food for us to go. I was really surprised at the food that we were given. I accepted it without reservations having read a little online that food is seen as spiritual with the Hare Krishnas. I still would like to learn more as to why.  I have to say it was delicious! And I enjoyed the fact that I could consume it without wondering if it was ethical. I burned a stick of the incense I was given early the next morning and I have to say that I have never smelled a fragrance so divine before. The scent drew me deeply into it and I felt almost as if I was smelling God Himself.


My short experience at the temple left me inspired and intrigued by what the Hare Krishnas believe and how they practice devotion. I have written about attending Quaker meetings and it's been my intention to visit other places of worship this coming year and write about these experiences on my blog.  I agree with what Ken Wilber has to say about there being truth in everyone's perspective, even if it is a little bit. I would say that the Hare Krishnas are onto something significant and are worth writing about and exploring. They seem to have a beautiful take on who and what God is and I would love to understand their beliefs more. I look forward to attending one of their gatherings, probably even more, in the near future and sharing my experience here with all of you.






Thoughts? I'd love to hear them! Please leave them in the comments section. Thank you!



Note: I use the word mantram, which is interchangeable with the word mantra for the most part. The word mantram appears in the Upanishads and it is also the word that Eknath Easwaran chooses to refer to when speaking of the sacred word (usually a holy name) that one chants and focuses on. Since I rely heavily on the teachings of Eknath Easwaran , I choose to use the word mantram. 

104 comments:

  1. Jessica, you made me feel as though I was right with you in this visit to the Hare Krishnas and I am so looking forward to your future posts about them and their beliefs. Right off the bat, I love their concept that we all worship the One God who reveals himself in different ways to all, but His truth remains the same.
    I'll also interested to see how practicing the beads turns out for you. As you might recall, I practiced saying the rosary off and on during Lent. I did find it extremely soothing, but I'm still not in the habit of doing it. Protestant traditions die hard! :)
    Thanks for this amazing post, my dear!
    Blessings always!

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    1. Martha...I'll definitely let you know how practicing with the beads goes. I have managed, since I've gotten them, to use them at least once a day, sometimes up to three. I'm enjoying using them!

      Yeah, I'm really intrigued by what the Hare Krishnas believe. I was given some material, which I've read, and it's all really fascinating. I'm looking forward to learning more from them.

      ~ Blessings

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    2. If it leads to the peace of the Lord, Jessica, it is going in the right direction. He works in ways most marvelous, doesn't He?
      Blessings to you!

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  2. I've first heard of Hare Krishna from George Harrison. I am curious where your faith is leading you and it's taking you to a beautiful place, I guess as it inclines you to know more about it. You spirit is so flexible. And peace is a fruit of the Spirit.

    The Japa beads is interesting...somewhat similar to the Muslims except that it speak of the 99 attributes of Allah.

    I pray that your experience may lead you to know God better and that you grow ever more spiritually.

    Thank you for sharing this :)

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    1. Thank you so much Melissa. Yes, through my research I've heard that Muslims also have prayer beads, and their beads are similar in number. Counting mantras or prayers, seems to be something prevalent in all the major religious traditions, even if perhaps they are more prominent or observed by one denomination and not widespread within a religion. For example, with Christianity you find Catholics using rosary beads but very few Protestants.

      Thank you for your prayer...I seek to understand and know God/reality with more clarity and will gladly go wherever my path takes me.

      Blessings to you sis. :)

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  3. Hi, Jessica! ~

    Sounds like a wonderful adventure! I love the idea of visiting many different gatherings from different spiritual practices (that's what I do, too) and writing about it in your blog. Delightful -- thank you for sharing ;-x

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    1. Lisa...on one of your threads, I'm not sure if it was on your blog or at BP, I noticed you mentioned you visit various places of worship. We should chat sometime...I'd love to talk about our experiences with one another!

      ~ Blessings

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  4. I really look forward to reading about your future spiritual experiences, Jessica. I believe experience is the best teacher. We have moved thru different faith traditions, leaving a conservative mennonite community not long ago. So intriguing to hear about your visit to the temple!

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    1. Thank you so much Jimi! I agree, experience is our best teacher...for to truly "know" something, we must experience it, not just believe it second hand. Wow, how fascinating that you left a conservative mennonite community recently...I recently left organized religion in the pursuit of a greater understanding and experience of God. I'm on a journey, as well as I think you and many others are, and look forward to sharing it with you. Hope you share some of yours as well! :)

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  5. I am glad for your experience. We have so many religions and faiths here in India and every experience is a personal journey. :)

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    1. Thank you Janaki...The more I search for truth the more I discover the beauty and wisdom that comes from your sacred land! ~ many blessings :)

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  6. Jessica, I enjoyed this article so much! I appreciate the fact that you remain open to other religions while still embracing your own sense of being Christian. I've walked a similar path, and the more I delve into other religions in a respectful and sincerely curious manner, the more similarities I find. Divisions tend to crop up, I find, from people who are rigid in their beliefs.

    You're fortunate to have a Hare Krishna temple so close to where you live, and I was quite interested in your experiences there. I'll look forward to reading your following installments. I'm now curious to the point that I'm going to do some research and find some books to read about the Hare Krishna. I love that you were met with equal respect, sincerity and openness by the people at that temple. In this manner, I find everything to be a beautifully connected, endless circle. :)

    - Dawn

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    1. Thank you so much Dawn! When I looked online and realized that we only have one Hare Krishna temple and it was 25 minutes away I felt blessed indeed! I think investigating the beliefs of others is an edifying experience that promotes spiritual growth and understanding. For sure, there are many similarities between religions..it's the black/white thinking that divides people.

      To be honest, I've dropped all religious labels when it comes to identifying myself as anything. I think the Christian faith is beautiful...I love Jesus, but I'm not sure in the strictest sense I'd be considered one. Right now, to really grow, I just need the space to seek openly without the boundaries.

      Thanks so much for stopping by. I loved your comment! I think it's great that you are going to look into the Hare Krishnas more...I'm looking forward to sharing my next post on them with you! :)

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  7. Jessica, it is really refreshing that you seek out other religions. I enjoyed hearing about your experience and I look forward to I reading more about the other faiths you explore. We become better when we are open to learning. Blessings.

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    1. Thank you Tameka! Learning from others definitely widens ou perspective and I think that that's essential in encountering truth in a genuine way.

      Thanks so much for stopping by. ~ blessings

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  8. Jessica, it is really refreshing that you seek out other religions. I enjoyed hearing about your experience and I look forward to I reading more about the other faiths you explore. We become better when we are open to learning. Blessings.

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  9. Jessica, hello!!! I am so glad to read this and see you as not one dimensional. You are a special being. Keep it up mate.

    A

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    1. I'm not sure what one-dimensional looks like...but I don't think I am! lol....Stick around A...I think you'd be surprised at how my views have evolved since we first connected in the blogosphere. :)
      ~ peace

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  10. A good book to read on the theme of exploring spiritual paths is The Journey Home by Radhanatha Swami. I couldn't put it down when I read it…
    Book review: http://projectbebold.com/archives/2187

    All the best!
    Christelle

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    1. Thank you so much for stopping by Christelle and for referring me to Radhanatha Swami's book, The Journey Home. Someone else brought up that same book yesterday! I have added it to my reading list and am going to try to see if I can get it at my libary or at Amazon.com.
      Thanks again! :)

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  11. Dear Jessica,

    Thank you for posting your experiences about your visit to the temple.
    Please find below some kind clarifications from a practising devotee.

    The murti you saw was probably A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder of ISKCON - the International Society for Krishna Consciousness - , more commonly known as the Hare Krishna Movement. His guru was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaj, although both were known to their disciples as "Srila Prabhupada", hence the possible confusion.

    "Mala" means "round", and "japa" silent/soft chanting. Hence japa mala [beads] is chanting around a circular set of beads to yourself.

    108 is an auspicious number, and while there are many ways of suggesting how this could be broken down, hearing about 100 plus "8 for mistakes" is a new one on me! Actually, just chanting the Hare Krishna mantra (or more broadly, "a name of the Lord") ONCE is enough to purify for mistakes and offenses.

    One excellent yet small book about chanting is "Chant and Be Happy", which the temple may very well have copies of. As well as giving a little history about the movement, it discusses the background and finer details of our chanting process, and also contrasts it to chanting in other beliefs with references to the scriptures, including the Bible. It also contains a very nice interview with George Harrison about his experiences and his "coming out" as a devotee. There's similar material in the recent DVD biography "Living in the Material World".

    I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey.

    Hare Krishna,

    David.

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    1. david. do not encourage anyone to join iskcon please, enough innocents people have been damaged by it, especially children, and also you should know that george harisson stopped financial assistance to iskcon after being disgusted with the behaviour of its leaders..
      a basic search of the internet will shed light on conclusive evidence of many kinds of abuses, its a sick movement and especially those with children should stay far away

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    2. Firstly, I do not deny that there have been instances of child abuse within ISKCON in the past - just as there have been in many religious (AND non-religious) institutions. However, from the temples I am involved with I know we now have zero-tolerance policies in place.

      Unfortunately "a basic search of the internet" will turn up as many (if not more) un-truths as truths - especially on the topic of ISKCON. Since the movement's beginning there have been so many attempts to dis-credit us.

      Recently when they tried to ban Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita As It Is in Russia, there was uproar in the Indian parliament. Do you think there would be such national-level support for "a sick movement"?

      David.

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    3. David,

      Thank you so much for stopping by. I really appreciate your thoughts and clarifications.

      "hearing about 100 plus "8 for mistakes" is a new one on me!"

      I had found that info on a couple of various sites. That might be more of a Buddhist take on reciting mantras with the beads. I have looked up info on them on both Buddhist and Hindu/Hare Krishna sites.

      The temple had many books, I bet they have "Chant and Be Happy"...I will ask the person I've been corresponding with if they have that one. Have you read "Nectar of Devotion"? I think I might get that one as well...I was given a booklet highlighting some of what is in it. I'm going to see if I can find that DVD you mentioned on YouTube..seems like just about everything is on YouTube! Thanks for the suggestions. :)

      ~ Blessings
      Jessica

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    4. Dear Jessica,

      I started reading Nectar of Devotion, but for me at the time I found it quite dry and a long list of facts to try and remember. Perhaps now - or when I become further advanced - I would get more out of it.

      It's certainly one of the four core scriptures Srila Prabhupada emphasised:

      "One should not partially study a book just to pose oneself as a great scholar by being able to refer to scriptures. In our Krsna consciousness movement we have therefore limited our study of the Vedic literatures to the Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Caitanya-Caritamrta and Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu [of which the Nectar of Devotion is a summary - David]. These four works are sufficient for preaching purposes. They are adequate for the understanding of the philosophy and the spreading of missionary activities all over the world."

      - http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/22/118/en


      Video of George Harrison leading bhajans in Srila Prabhupada's darshan room at Bhaktivedanta Manor:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7arV2cEAm8

      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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  12. If you do a thorough reading of some of George harissons biographies, especially the patti Boyd one, you will encounter instances of child abuse and neglect on the part of the hare krsnas, especially when they stayed with him at his house. One child was left to roam around and nearly drowned twice in the same lake as she was not being watched.

    I urge much caution with the hare krsnas, as a former member of 25 years, I now have two children, both were made to suffer during our years, we were nearly murdered and made homeless on occasion..

    Here is legal evidence of abuse

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    1. I have not read the Patti Boyd biography you cite.

      Olivia Harrison (George's second wife) was involved with the Living In The Material World documentary, and indeed appears in it. I also know she still has contact with ISKCON.

      David.

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  13. http://www.harekrsna.org/gurupoison/support/turley.htm

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    1. Again, I do not deny the fact that there have been child abuse issues within ISKCON in the past.

      However, the link you give firstly defends Srila Prabhupada from the personal allegations, but then goes on to promote the "poison theory" conspiracy, which has since been declared a hoax by one of its proponents:

      http://www.oneiskcon.com/2012/02/narrator-of-poison-cd-declares-hoax-2/

      Jessica is an intelligent woman. I'm sure if she detected anything sinister about ISKCON she would act appropriately. From my own experiences ISKCON is a welcoming and loving family, and our scriptures contain such great depth on the science of love of God.

      No one is forced to join or remain in ISKCON. Our scriptures are openly available and our temples and classes open to the public.

      Of course nothing I have said will change the minds of those inimical towards ISKCON.

      David.

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    2. When it comes to the alleged abuses within ISKON, it seems to be something that comes with the territory of any organized group...religious or secular, at one point or another. Especially groups that organize themselves as communities.

      Yes, there has been documented abuse in ISKON that I have read about,in their very early years. It appears, though, that as soon as they were made aware of it they took immediate action. From what I read, in the early years of ISKON they allowed most anyone in their communities without screening but now things have changed considerably. A devotee in one interview that I watched on YouTube mentioned that they are a lot more strict in screening members, especially those that live in the temples and communities...that they will not allow people who have a criminal record, etc.

      One might compare this potentially with the Catholic Church...where abuse has been well documented and where the Church has tried to cover it up in many cases. At least ISKON seems to not have tried to cover up what has happened in their past when exposed. In fact, I read reports of how they actively sought out those who were abused and made settlements to at least recognize what happened and make amends in some way or another. Though, of course, the effects of abuse can never be taken away by money. But at least it was a gesture towards righting wrongs.

      I'm not defending ISKON, because I am quite a novice when it comes to the group, but I would say that one needs to look at what an organization is like now and how it has grown and evolved from what it was in the past. It seems like ISKON has made some very positive steps.

      Thank you ..Anyonymous(I'm not sure your name :) ), for your thoughts..I'm going to check out the resources you mentioned.

      ~ Blessings

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  14. David,

    "I'm sure if she detected anything sinister about ISKCON she would act appropriately."

    I definitely would have! Especially since I had brought my son with me. I actually detected nothing but warmth from those I had met there and would love to visit again. If I had felt any reservations at all I would have left more quickly...instead we stayed quite awhile in conversation.

    "From my own experiences ISKCON is a welcoming and loving family, and our scriptures contain such great depth on the science of love of God."

    That's something I wish to explore more...Your take on God...who/what He is.

    Thanks again David for stopping by here and leaving your thoughts. :)

    ~ Blessings

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  15. Jessica, do not let others shape too much the way you look at the world. Spirituality is within us as well as all around. Some places just make it more apparent to us, especially when we are preoccupied with our daily routines. Taste that spirituality and see if the flavor is what you seek and if it gives you inspiration. Open yourself to that taste and do not let others interfere with it's flow.
    Peace...

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  16. Thank you so much Max...Your words carry much truth! No worries about letting others shape me too much...Some have tried and I've let those people go. Everyone is on their own journey and we must seek earnestly for the truth ourselves and not just accept what is handed to us...the Buddha said something like that once...That everyone must work out their salvations for themselves and no man can carry another to liberation. (totally paraphrasing!)Our journeys are ours alone to take. Though inspiration and the teachings of others can become beautiful lamp posts illuminating our paths.

    I believe God is within us all. And there are probably as many ways of discovering the divine/ultimate reality as there are seekers that thirst after it.

    Thank you so much for stopping by.

    ~ Blessings

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  17. Jessica, I'm marveling at the way you are evolving and opening yourself out to many forms of prayer. You've come a long way, baby ;)
    As long as we have open minds and hearts, the Spirit will guide you. Much love and prayer.

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    1. Thank you so much for your encouraging words Corinne! I definitely have changed, for better or for worse, a lot this past year spiritually. ;) Thanks for sharing the journey.

      ~blessings

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  18. really I am stunned, you are so much aware and deep into the practices related to our subcontinent.In fact much more than I know. congrats, keep it going

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    1. Thank you for stopping by Jerly. I think your part of the globe had an immeasurable amount to offer the world in terms of its knowledge of the spiritual. I love diving into the Gita and Upanishads and learning more about your beliefs and philosophies.
      ~ many blessings

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  19. Hi Jessica,

    Stumbled across your blog and would like to add a few words from whatever I have learned being a practicing Hare Krishna for about 4 years.

    I initially wanted to remark regarding the fact that in your blog you have used the word "believe/belief" very many times. And I wanted to request you to go further than belief and try to "know" for yourself. Beliefs can be very many but they may or may not have any relation to the truth. Or may have only a partial connection at best.

    However, upon reading your responses to another comment I realize that you yourself are quite aware of the difference between belief and "knowing". Knowing comes from experiencing for yourself. That is why in our teachings the stress is on the scientific nature of the teachings/process - in that if the "prescribed-process" is followed sincerely and with proper understanding and we experience the experience/feelings/thoughts etc similar to that explained in the teachings - then the teachings stand validated.

    This is science - a combination of theory/philosophy and practical laboratory work. The only difference being that in this case we ourselves are the laboratory.

    Another point I would like to comment on is "no man can carry another to liberation". Fully agree with this one - however, with this deliberation. The teacher and teachings show us the path but we have to ourselves actually traverse the path to liberation. In the words of Srila Prabhupada - we all need to learn to fly our own plane. Hence the teacher/s and teachings are ALSO very important.

    Hare Krishna
    Sanjay

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    1. Thank you Sanjay so much.

      "Beliefs can be very many but they may or may not have any relation to the truth. Or may have only a partial connection at best. "

      I couldn't agree more!

      I like the idea of seeking truth through experience. Words hold as much weight as we give them and are oftentimes misleading. Experience puts everything in a true perspective and it's the place where true understanding arises. I like how you described your practice as a science " a combination of theory/philosophy and practical laboratory work. The only difference being that in this case we ourselves are the laboratory."

      On your point regarding the importance of teachers...I can definitely see how they would be instrumental in one's spiritual path. I have definitely found some teachings from others helpful..like those of Eknath Easwaran and Alan Watts ...but as to having a personal teacher to guide me through my spiritual journey, I don't have one of those and I think it's a great asset to those who do. I could definitely see the benefit of one and have thought about that in the past.

      Thanks so much for stopping by! I really appreciated your thoughts.

      Hare Krishna! :)

      Jessica

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  20. What a wonderful and interesting adventure Jessica! I believe we should embrace every new experience with an open mind, mould it and then form our own opinion. Great post Jessica and I happy they added your link to this post. You have done a great job!

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    1. Thank you Nelieta for stopping by...I'm glad you liked the article! I agree with you in your reflections that we should maintain open minds and form our own opinions. So true!
      ~ blessings

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  21. Beautiful bog entry. Keep posting. I am glad to have known a broad minded person like yourself who knows how to appreciate the essence of other religious systems.

    Hare Krishna...

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    1. Thank you so much Satsvarupa...I hope you continue to stop by!

      Hare Krishna :)
      ~ Jessica

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  22. A quote from a lecture by radhanath swami when he was asked the following question

    Question-" what are we to do when a senior devotee abuses us?"

    radhanath swamis answers " a devotee is a representative of god, if god wants to hurt you, he will send someone to hurt you, even if it's a devotee"

    Question" a senior devotee tried to rape my wife, so you are saying that's ok?"

    Radhanath swami " maybe your wife attracted the lust of the devotee by her behaviour, it might not be his fault"

    Get real, the whole thing is messed up

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  23. Anonymous...Could you cite your source...the specific lecture? I don't necessarily doubt what you are saying, but it would add to the credibility of it. Obviously, such a line of reasoning would be highly offensive. Rationalizing abuse, especially by putting God into the equation, is never acceptable..at least in my view.

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  24. Hi Jessica

    I would be very surprised if the above by Mr. Anonymous is true.

    I digress however, for I came here to share something I heard in a lecture this morning. Almost all persons who are seeking - or, at the very least know that they are seeking - say that they are "seeking the truth". I also notice this in your response dated (Apr 30, 2012 07:55 PM) on this page. OK - now here is the extract from the lecture:

    ---------------------------------------------------
    So our process is how to please Him (God - Sanjay) so that He will be revealed to me. That is real process. You cannot, therefore they are mistaking a nonsense God. Because they cannot see God, anybody says that "I am God," are accepted. But they do not know what is God. Somebody says that "I am searching after the truth." But you must know what is the truth. Otherwise how you will search out truth? Suppose if you want to purchase gold. You must theoretically know, or at least some experience what is gold. Otherwise people will cheat you. So these people are being cheated, accepting so many rascals as God. Because they do not know what is God. Anyone comes, "Oh, I am God," and the rascal -- he is rascal, and the man who says that "I am God," he's also rascal. So rascal society and one rascal is accepted God. God is not like that. One has to qualify himself to see God, to understand God. That is Krsna consciousness. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. If you engage yourself in the service of the Lord, then you'll be qualified to see God. Otherwise it is not possible.
    --------------------------------------------------------

    The reference in the above quote is to the various gurus who either themselves proclaim (or their disciples / followers proclaim on their behalf) - to be God.

    That is the reason why searching for truth is one thing but actually finding the truth is a very different thing. From my own experience I can say that trying to find a person who is completely free of any form of prejudice is even more difficult than trying to find "the tip of a hair" in a haystack. I know - "needle" is the actual word in the above proverb - but I modified it a bit :)

    I noticed that you logged in and responded to the dandavats website that posted this article of yours. Thanks for doing that. That's how I came to visit your site here.

    Hare Krishna
    Sanjay

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  25. Thank you Sanjay,

    Your comment had me thinking about it on and off today.I haven't gotten to respond until now. Thank you for sharing an excerpt from the lecture you heard this morning..it was really interesting.


    "I am searching after the truth." But you must know what is the truth. Otherwise how you will search out truth?"

    I don't know...I don't think I necessarily "know" the truth and that is something I am pursuing. At least the full truth. I think I have discovered some core truths along the way though (like the fact that we are not our egos in the most fundamental sense...that our thoughts, our body, our emotions, are all impermanent-that I do believe is true) and in my pursuit of truth and God, have discovered some things that I believe aren't true.

    My question is how can anybody really ever know the truth before they first seek it? They would have to be born knowing.

    Thanks again. :)

    Blessings,
    Jessica

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    1. Dear Jessica,

      "My question is how can anybody really ever know the truth before they first seek it? They would have to be born knowing."

      In our natural state our soul is sat-cit-ananda - eternal, full of knowledge, and blissful. When we come to this material world our soul is covered by a subtle body (mind, intelligence and false ego) and a gross (physical) body, and we are in maya (illusion).

      So in a way we already DO know, but that knowledge is covered. (Srila Prabhupada, when question once by a reporter on arriving in a new country, was asked why he had come. He replied "To teach you what you have forgotten" - i.e., love of God.)

      om anjnana-timirandhasya
      jnananjana-salakaya
      caksur unmilitam yena
      tasmai sri-gurave namah

      "I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my guru, my spiritual master, opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."

      tad viddhi praṇipātena
      paripraśnena sevayā
      upadekṣyanti te jñānaḿ
      jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ

      "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth." - Bhagavad Gita 4.34

      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    2. David,

      Now that I reflect on your answer, that does make a lot of sense. It resonates with some of what I've already learned. That the Self (our true natures-Atman which is one with Brahman) is covered by layers of ego and that we have to shed those in order to discover and realize it.

      Perhaps it can be likened to the analogy that we were born sleeping and we only need to be awakened to our true natures/reality in its most radiant clarity. I think this can be achieved through mindfulness but even when one practices mindfulness and meditation it is helpful to have a guide. I can see how a spiritual teacher would be instrumental in helping to reveal the lamp posts and markers on one's path. No one likes to stumble around in the dark.

      Thanks for answering my question. :)

      Hare Krishna,

      Jessica

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    3. Dear Jessica,

      Yes, that's exactly it, it is as if we are sleeping, or in darkness, or have memory loss as to who we are and who God is and what our relation is to Him.


      "That the Self (our true natures-Atman which is one with Brahman)"

      The atma is one with Brahman in the sense that it is of the same quality, but it's not of the same quantity - God is infinite and all powerful; we are not. Srila Prabhupada would often give the analogy of an object made of gold and a goldmine; both have the same nature (quality), but the two are not the same (i.e. in quantity).


      I realise this is straying a long way from your original post of acquiring some japa beads! However, your closing paragraph and subsequent comments have shown you are interested in understanding more of our philosophy, which I hope I and others have been able to help to explain.

      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    4. David,

      That makes total sense to me. That we are of the same quality but not the same quantity. It reminds me of how some of the mystics refer to the eternal that resides within us as sparks of the Divine. It is not the Divine in its full capacity, for that would be impossible..that would make us Brahman/God...but mere fragments.

      I've been really enjoying this conversation. Thank you!

      ~ Many blessings,
      Jessica

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  26. Glad you met Jiva and her husband. He's really good with kids and does magic shows at birthday parties as a side business. When their family would visit us in NC, he would treat us to the show.
    The 'temple' is actually their home, which they open to the public. They've raised two kids in that sharing environment. The kids would assist in temple functions between video games, school and other things that any other kid growing up in Hartford does.
    I imagine they've moved off to college or careers by now.
    On your next visit please say Hi from Mitra and my wife Maharha in North Carolina.
    Mitra

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    1. Mitra,

      Thank you so much for your comment! How neat that you found this article and actually know Jiva and her husband! I will definitely say hi for you to them. Yes, her husband is a natural with children! I couldn't believe how he had my son giggling, sitting comfortably and contentedly on the floor playing a game. My son is pretty easy going but in a new atmosphere sometimes any child's first instinct is to cling, and that certainly was his when we first got there.

      I wasn't sure if it was their house or not. What big hearts they have, to open it up like that to others.

      Thanks again for stopping by. :)

      ~ Blessings

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  27. Good Afternoon Jessica

    Looks like this post of yours might a large number of responses. You seem to have become a sort of a blogosphere celebrity overnight - having visited your local temple and penned this article (at least among the Hare Krishna people).

    I would like to add a few more points: learning is endless and if at any point you feel bored or disinterested - please just say so & I will desist from further posts :)

    As you have yourself mentioned that you are seeking truth and have been discovering them over a period of time. That is correct. However, there are almost infinite number of truths - each of a varying levels. However, just as there are truths and there are untruths - there should be something that is called in our teachings as "Absolute Truth".

    Some spiritual teachers teach that God is bright and dazzling light, others teach that God is everything. Some say that everything is God and some say that God is in everything. You see, there are so many variations here itself...
    Then when you look at the core of most formal religions - they all agree that God is a person.

    So what of the above is really correct? Is it possible that all the above are partially correct and from different perspectives? Isn't there a teaching that exists in this world that is able to help put all the above perspectives in their proper position? How do all these truths be true at one and the same time?

    This is what you have stumbled upon now. Five years ago when I started reading up on Krishna consciousness one of the first books I read was called "Science of Self Realization". If, and when you visit the temple again see if you can get a copy of this book. This one, simple book helped me put into perspective everything that I had read before on the subject of spirituality and answered questions that I didn't even know that I had.

    Wish you the best on your journey.

    In another post I would try to discuss another point that has been on my mind to share.

    Hare Krishna
    Sanjay

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  28. Hello Sanjay,

    "I would like to add a few more points: learning is endless and if at any point you feel bored or disinterested - please just say so & I will desist from further posts :)"

    I love nothing more than to learn and explore..especially when it has to do with the nature and reality of God. That is mainly what my whole blog is about...trying to discover God/reality more. To me, it's the most important thing to learn and to know! So, never think I am tiring of our conversation! I am really enjoying it. :)

    "Is it possible that all the above are partially correct and from different perspectives?"

    I believe so. Though, I myself, have yet to put it all the pieces together in their entirety to see the whole picture. But I do believe there is truth in all perspectives...I feel I have discovered some of those but as to realize the absolute truth, I'm still kind of searching for that. The thing that I probably struggle with most these days is to believe that God is a personal intentional God...One with his own personality. That immediately catapults me into questioning why an all powerful, loving God would allow all of the suffering there is in this world..why He wouldn't stop it, since He is capable.

    "Isn't there a teaching that exists in this world that is able to help put all the above perspectives in their proper position?"

    If there is, and it seems that you might be suggesting there is :) , I would love to learn more about it. I hope to visit the temple next Sunday...I am going to see if they have "Science of Self Realization". Right now I am finishing up a book by Ken Wilber, seems like a perfect book to move on to afterwards. :)

    Thank you so much for writing...Feel free to share as much as you'd like. I really enjoy conversations like these. :)

    Hare Krishna,

    Jessica

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  29. Dear Jessica,

    Sanjay went on to a topic I was going to mention in my reply re Brahman, but in the end I thought to leave it out to keep my reply concise and not overwhelm you.

    Many people ask why, if God exists, there is so much suffering in the world. Indeed, the famous atheist Richard Dawkins asked this of the Archbishop of Canterbury in a recent debate. The Archbishop said something along the lines of it was indeed a mystery, and that he/Christianity didn't have an answer for that.

    Our Vedic scriptures do. We were originally in the spiritual world with God. As mentioned earlier (re quality/quantity), we have a minute fraction of God's attributes, so while He can do whatever He wants, we have own our very limited free will.

    For whatever reason we each decided to turn away from God - we wanted to do or enjoy things for ourselves. Because God is so compassionate towards us, he created the material world so that we can act out our false sense of proprietorship and experience so-called enjoyment there.

    So this material world is temporary place full of misery - a kind of hospital or mental asylum where we are free to act out our fantasies.

    OK, so far so good, and I hope you can recognise the parallels between Christianity and Adam & Eve, and many other traditions that have a "fall."

    Where the Vedic scriptures go beyond is in the knowledge of Karma and Reincarnation. When we act materialistically we are acruing either "good" or "bad" karma, depending on the nature of our actions. Our sufferings are due to our previous Karma - both in this life, AND IN PREVIOUS BIRTHS. The latter is important because it explains why people suffer (or die) when young or even from birth.

    But there is some good news. God is just waiting for us to turn back towards Him. Krishna states:

    "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection." - Bhagavad Gita 8.15

    and concludes the Gita with:

    "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

    Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear." - BG 18.65-66.

    If that isn't the most hopeful and compassionate message then I don't know what is!

    With best wishes,

    Hare Krishna,

    David.

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    1. Thank you David,

      I have to say the take that the Vedic scriptures have does make God out to be a lot more compassionate than the impression I get from the Bible. Rather than a fiery hell where a nonbeliever is tormented for eternity, souls are reborn at the level where their consciousness was at their previous life. It kind of reminds me of a ladder one would ascend, moving ever upward until finally one reaches the top...which would be heaven. That definitely seems a lot more merciful and loving. When one makes a finite mistake they are not judged and punished for infinity but instead given another life to learn the lesson they fumbled at learning the first time around. That makes a lot of sense actually.

      Do you believe heaven is a physical place? Or more where that which is eternal within us merges back to its source/God?...My view tends to lean towards the latter.

      The one thing that I wonder about when it comes to karma, that makes me pause, is this. Say one was born in an impoverished country, let's say already infected with the AIDS virus. Given the concept of karma, those that look at that infected, impoverished baby would consider him that way because of the mistakes he made in his past life? Doesn't that create the possibility for people to look on those who are suffering with less compassion, figuring they are somehow at fault for it?

      Thanks again. I'm really enjoying this conversation.

      ~ Blessings,
      Jessica

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    2. Dear Jessica,

      Firstly my apologies for not having replied to some of yours and others' posts on here for a few days - I have been busy with service at my local temple. I am still in the middle of things, but will try and write some replies when I can!


      Regarding your first paragraph about reincarnation, actually souls can go down as well as up. The Vedic scriptures state there are 8,400,000 species of life (scientists recently make a computer model that arrived at a figure of 8,600,000), and that includes both higher ("heavenly") planets and lower ("hellish") ones too. Even within this ("middle") set of planets one can be reborn as an animal or plant.

      That said, one will ALWAYS have the prospect of moving up; it's NOTE *ETERNAL* damnation.


      Regarding your second paragraph, for Hare Krishnas there is a distinction between the "heavenly planets" (still part of the material universe) and the spiritual world, and it's the latter that I guess would equate to the Christians' "Heaven."

      The spiritual world is different from the material world because it's made of God's spiritual energy (as are souls), so it does have a form and a substance, but it's spiritual rather than material. So "Heaven" IS 'physical', but made of spiritual matter.

      Upon going back to Krishna (God), we therefore do go back to the Kingdom of God - but we retain our individuality. As Krishna states in the Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kurushektra:

      "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (Bg 2.12)

      Note He is referring to INDIVIDUALs here - I, you, the kings.

      Jesus also said:

      "In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."

      That sounds very much like a 'physical' place where one retains ones individuality!

      However, as Sanjay mentioned in another reply, there are different levels of God-realisation: as His impersonal aspect (light, oneness, [merging with] the Brahman), the Supersoul (Paramatma) that accompanies each living entity along with its individual soul, and His personal aspect - Bhagavan.

      "Merging" with God in his Brahman aspect is one valid and possible destination for those that follow that path and wish for that type of liberation. But as Arjuna asks Krishna:

      Arjuna inquired: "Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?"

      The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: "Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect."

      "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

      "But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Pṛthā — for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death."

      (Bhagavad Gita Chapter 12)

      So desiring the impersonal form and liberation of the Lord is a lengthy and risky process. Better take the fast-track road and worship and serve Him directly!

      (continued...)

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    3. Regarding your third paragraph, we are ALL at fault and so our current positions are due to that; we have no-one to blame but ourselves! Many people blame God for their miseries - but congratulate themselves on successes that are apparently due to their own effort! Actually Srila Prabhupada said that our happiness and misery is already allotted (i.e. due to past karma), so we should accept both indifferently.

      One may question: when do devotees of the Lord (in whatever tradition) appear to suffer? We should understand that suffering is a way to burn off our bad karma.

      It should also be remarked that overall one cannot judge a person's spiritual level by their physical appearance, situation, maladies, etc. We should instead judge them by how God-conscious they are, and by the good (spiritual) qualities they possess.

      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    4. Thank you David so much for being willing to continue this conversation despite your busy schedule. :)

      That's interesting, and actually makes sense, that reincarnation could work both ways. That would be a profound expression of true justice, in my view. Say, for example, someone makes a really selfish and violent decision and they've already been born with heaps of negative karma, then they might be born again as not human and have to start working their way up again.

      "That said, one will ALWAYS have the prospect of moving up; it's NOT *ETERNAL* damnation."

      And that's where I see the concept of mercy would come in. I don't like the idea of eternal damnation at all. I used to believe in it for years, readily , almost not really digesting what it truly meant. When I started meditating I started to become aware of God's reality within me, I could feel this immense and profound love and peace and I knew then that it was incongruent...the notion of God being all-loving, and there being an eternal damnation.

      "Upon going back to Krishna (God), we therefore do go back to the Kingdom of God - but we retain our individuality."

      Ok, I have a question...which individuality do we retain? That of our most recent life? When one goes from one life to the next, I know, or at least I think I do, from what I've read, that one carries the karma from their last life to their new one. But what of personality...I'm not sure how that would work. I'm under the view that we are not our thoughts , our egos, even our bodies. That the only thing that is real about us, the only thing that remains and will never perish, is that which eternal within. Does that contain within it a sense of autonomy? I'm not sure yet.

      "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

      Does it say why it's so troublesome? Is it because one might become unfocused and maybe lose grasp on God's attributes and full nature?..Sorry.. I have a lot of questions!

      "t should also be remarked that overall one cannot judge a person's spiritual level by their physical appearance, situation, maladies, etc. We should instead judge them by how God-conscious they are, and by the good (spiritual) qualities they possess."

      Ok, that would make sense.

      Thanks again. :)

      krsne matir astu,

      Jessica

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    5. Dear Jessica,

      It is a mark of a true spiritual seeker that they ask questions, and it benefits both the one who is asking the question, the one who is answering, and also those who are listening. Regrettably I can only answer to the extent of my own limited understanding (and when I have the time!).


      "When I started meditating I started to become aware of God's reality within me, I could feel this immense and profound love and peace"

      I went through that too before I came to Krishna consciousness. As I and Sanjay have mentioned, there are three different aspects/levels of God-realisation:

      1) the impersonal light/love/oneness/energy - Brahman
      2) the Paramata - the supersoul (God) within
      3) Bhagavan - God as a person

      It sounds like you have gained some experience into one or both of the first two. But again, God is there as a person (He made us in His image; not the other way around as atheists would insist), and it's that God as a person I would urge you to keep open minded about and seek, and who in due course of time may be revealed to you.


      "Ok, I have a question...which individuality do we retain? That of our most recent life? When one goes from one life to the next, I know, or at least I think I do, from what I've read, that one carries the karma from their last life to their new one. But what of personality...I'm not sure how that would work. I'm under the view that we are not our thoughts , our egos, even our bodies. That the only thing that is real about us, the only thing that remains and will never perish, is that which eternal within. Does that contain within it a sense of autonomy? I'm not sure yet."

      The exact same question came to me at one point. It was answered in a Zen-like moment of realisation - I couldn't verbalise it, but I just gained an understanding of the statement that we retain our individuality.

      But it is said that on the spiritual path ones original nature is eventually revealed - first ones spritual name (which one is given by the spiritual master on initiation), and then ones spiritual identity and lila in relationship to God. I believe Srila Prabhupada was questioned once about revealing the latter, and he said to the devotee that they were not advanced enough to even begin to think about that question, and that in any case our overall relationship to God is one of a (loving) servant. Better to focus on that aspect and concentrate on purifying yourself enough to go back to God before worrying about what you'll do/be once there!


      ""For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied."

      Does it say why it's so troublesome? Is it because one might become unfocused and maybe lose grasp on God's attributes and full nature?..Sorry.. I have a lot of questions!"

      Because it's difficult for one who is still attached/contaminated by the physical world to focus on something formless. Also, even if one achieves impersonal liberation, there is always the chance of falling back down to the material world again. However, it is much easier to have a relationship with a person, and Krishna promises that one who is devoted to Him (i.e. in His personal form) will come to Him and will not return again.

      To use a crude analogy, it's possible to have a relationship with someone over the Internet, but it's definitely impersonal. A phone call relationship is closer, you get some sense of the person, yet how often do "distance relationships" not last? But being WITH someone, then you truly get to know them.


      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    6. David,

      I have to say your graciousness at answering my questions and the fact that you can relate to some of them is really refreshing. Thank you!

      "it's that God as a person I would urge you to keep open minded about and seek, and who in due course of time may be revealed to you."

      I haven't ruled anything out 100% but I would say that with the first two I have had enough glimpses of experiencing those realities to incorporate them into my notion of what is true. I do think it's wise to leave my heart and mind open to the possibility of one though. I have to confess that most of my turning away from the idea of a personal God was my lack of experiencing Him combined with my angst towards what seemed His questionable morality as I've come to have significant reservations regarding a lot in the Bible. I do admit, though, I find the take the Vedic scriptures have on God a lot more compassionate, as I've stated in an earlier comment. Refreshing really. I'm not big on the eternal damnation concept.

      "Better to focus on that aspect and concentrate on purifying yourself enough to go back to God before worrying about what you'll do/be once there!"

      I couldn't agree more! I'm actually not too concerned with death. I'm more driven towards understanding the nature of reality, of God, here..now. And I definitely think the closer we come to core realizations and to God in this lifetime, undoubtedly helps prepare us for whatever happens after we die.

      "Because it's difficult for one who is still attached/contaminated by the physical world to focus on something formless. Also, even if one achieves impersonal liberation, there is always the chance of falling back down to the material world again. However, it is much easier to have a relationship with a person"

      So, having a relationship with a personal God, like Krishna, kind of is like a more tangible anchor that tethers one more securely to the Ultimate truth, preventing one to be knocked off course by a rogue wave, only to then have to find their way back again?


      Thanks again. :)

      Hare Krishna,
      Jessica

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    7. Dear Jessica,

      "So, having a relationship with a personal God, like Krishna, kind of is like a more tangible anchor that tethers one more securely to the Ultimate truth, preventing one to be knocked off course by a rogue wave, only to then have to find their way back again?"

      Yes, that's one way of looking at it, and yet the ultimate truth IS Krishna (God). The Brahman aspect and Paramatma aspect are also God, but they are expansions of Him.

      "O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." - Bg 7.7

      "After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." - Bg 7.19

      "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." - Bg 10.8

      In Zen it is said that before enlightenment a mountain was just a mountain, upon enlightenment a mountain was no longer a mountain, and then after enlightenment a mountain was just a mountain again.

      In other words (and it's the process I went through, and it appears to be the one you're going through as well), you can start off with God as a person (personalism/dualism), come to the understanding that God is everything (impersonalism/monism), then come back to God being a person - and yet ALSO everything!

      Actually the philosophy that Hare Krishnas follow is "Achintya-Bheda-Abheda" - "inconceivable one-ness and difference."

      "Caitanya's philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda-tattva completed the progression to devotional theism. Rāmānuja had agreed with Śaṅkara that the Absolute is one only, but he had disagreed by affirming individual variety within that oneness. Madhva had underscored the eternal duality of the Supreme and the Jīva: he had maintained that this duality endures even after liberation. Caitanya, in turn, specified that the Supreme and the jīvas are "inconceivably, simultaneously one and different" (acintya-bheda-abheda). " - Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, Readings in Vedic Literature: The Tradition Speaks for Itself, Chapter 5

      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    8. "I have to confess that most of my turning away from the idea of a personal God was my lack of experiencing Him [in that form as a person]"

      I only just picked up on this bit.

      When Arjuna asks to see Krishna universal form in the Gita, Krishna obliges, yet says "But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give you divine eyes. Behold My mystic opulence!" (Bg 11.8)

      So for us, this is exactly why He comes in His archa-vigraha - His Deity form in the temple. Since matter is an emanation of God (as His material, lower energy), matter is also God, and he further permeates everything as the Paramatma. However, when Deities are properly installed and properly worshipped, He enters into them personally.

      Someone once asked Srila Prabhupada in a class if he had seen God, to which there were gasps. Srila Prabhupada emphatically said yes - and gestured to the Deities.

      This is Krishna's promise:

      "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend." Bg 18.65

      In other words, just become a devotee of God, and you WILL get to see Him.

      This is the guarantee of patience and perseverance - if you keep following the path of devotion in this life, you will go back to Him at the end of it.

      (The lack of mention of reincarnation in, e.g., Christianity, may be understood to be to focus one on reaching God at the end of THIS life.)

      Hare Krishna,

      David.


      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    9. Hi David,

      It's been a few days. I'm not sure if you will get this..but I did want to respond to what you wrote. Thank you for your responses. :)

      "The Brahman aspect and Paramatma aspect are also God, but they are expansions of Him."

      Okay. So recognizing Krishna is also recognizing these two other aspects of God simultaneously...Because Krishna is those two dimensions as well as the personal dimension of God. Thank you for the verses in the Bhagavad Gita, they definitely support that.

      "In other words (and it's the process I went through, and it appears to be the one you're going through as well), you can start off with God as a person (personalism/dualism), come to the understanding that God is everything (impersonalism/monism), then come back to God being a person - and yet ALSO everything!"

      Yes, except I'm having trouble coming back to God being a person. When through meditation I experienced, what I feel was God's transcendent nature, His abundant love and depth of reality, I knew He was ALL. That He is in all and all is in Him. Through Him all is made and returns.I always think of God being everything and yet transcending everything. What is it that transcends? I'm not quite sure...I speculate His creativity, the energy that creates, His love...I guess all of those might be qualities of a personality.


      "So for us, this is exactly why He comes in His archa-vigraha - His Deity form in the temple. Since matter is an emanation of God (as His material, lower energy), matter is also God, and he further permeates everything as the Paramatma. However, when Deities are properly installed and properly worshipped, He enters into them personally."

      I never really heard the concept of having deities and what they were explained...That makes a lot of sense. If all energy is God's, then why wouldn't He be able to dwell specifically in material objects that are attributed to Him? How does He come to dwell in deities though?

      "In other words, just become a devotee of God, and you WILL get to see Him."

      That's all I want. To see and realize more of God. To know His nature. To know God more fully. There seems to be so many different paths. I guess all we can do is to seek the truth (which must be synonymous with God because God cannot contradict with the truth) with all our hearts and minds. To seek and to serve, manifesting His love and compassion into the world.

      Thank you so much. Sorry this took so long to respond to.


      Hare Krishna,

      Jessica

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    10. Dear Jessica,

      "Okay. So recognizing Krishna is also recognizing these two other aspects of God simultaneously...Because Krishna is those two dimensions as well as the personal dimension of God."

      Yes, that's it! Hold on to that VERY tightly!

      "I always think of God being everything and yet transcending everything."

      Yes, again, you've got it.

      "What is it that transcends? I'm not quite sure..."

      God, the person, who has a form and personality, and all the things we associate with a person.

      Unfortunately we have been conditioned souls since time immemorial, and contaminated by the material nature. Because of this our understanding has been covered, and we can only think on the material platform. Thus when told God has a form we think of a (our) material form, and the limitations such a form has. But God has a SPIRITUAL form, made of SPIRITUAL MATTER, and resides in the spiritual world.

      Similarly when God comes to this earth either directly or indirectly, people are prone to thinking of Him as "just a man."

      Srila Prabhupada often gives the example of a jailhouse for this material world, and sometimes the head of the prison or Government Minister for Justice will come to inspect his jail. But although he comes and wanders about the jail, he is not subject to the laws and restrictions placed on the inmates.

      Likewise, God is not affected by the material nature when He comes here, and neither is He affected by it in the spiritual world - since these are His lower energies, which are under His control!


      "How does He come to dwell in deities though?"

      He is invited to enter into the Deity by invoking a particular mantra during the installation ceremony.

      Srila Prabhupada would give the example of a boss in a business. Although the boss may remain in his own office, he permeates the organisation with his personality, instructions and subordinates. Sometimes he may come to a department personally - and of course is offered respect when he does so.

      So, Krishna too remains in the spiritual world and yet also (simultaneously) permeates the material world. He also comes here personally or via His representative from time to time, and resides in the Deities in the temple where He is offered worship and respect. (And He's always "looking over our shoulder" as the supersoul within the heart!)

      WIth best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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  30. Hi Jessica

    I am an ex guru in iskcon and have read the above thread in great interest. Let me tell you as briefly as I can that you need to ask yourself some questions, is that ok?

    First, why are the devotees that are corresponding with you here sounding so desperate to keep your faith in the iskcon movement?

    Second- do you think an external source such as a movement or other practitioners as being essential to your spiritual growth?

    Third- are you aware of other hare Krishna movements existing as well? Are you aware that iskcon tries hard to discredit these other societies and even organised Christianity, Buddhism etc?


    Fourth- are you aware that most of iskcons leaders ( I was one myself for many years ) are extremely rich, do not follow the principles they should and expect others too, while many of the followers are poor and abused by the leaders?

    As an ex leader, I am privvy to information that most are not, kind of scary, and some will deny it, but the fact of the matter is that the Krishna consciousness process is not giving love of god to any of these people, hence the problems. The problems have increased over the years and are well documented on a site www.harekrsna.com/sun

    The sheer level of abuse is so prominent that many are leaving, those that stay only do so out of fear of being able to function again in the material world

    I do not want you to lose faith, but I don't want to to believe that iskcon is stable and can help you because it cannot. It is an experiment that has failed and is no where near close to what it's founder Prabhupada had in mind.

    There is fraud, extortion of funds from the public that goes to leaders income, many leaders engage in gay sex with each other, have serious drug addictions, sometimes even murder each other or threaten to.

    I do not know you, nor you know me, but I likely know the movement better than anyone you have met thus far, and I left because I myself was threatened with murder, by a guru that is still a guru, and you know why I was threatened? Because I knew that guru was planning to kill another.

    So, have faith in god, follow your head, not your heart, because the iskcon devotees are expert at pulling on heart strings, thus making us side with them more despite the problems. Genuine affection may be there, but I assure you it is a cult tactic to keep you on their side, I know, I was caught by such tactics and used them myself, with my former disciples and prospective ones.

    Please look at www.harekrsna.com/sun and also see that there are other devotee societies such as www.scsmath.com , societies that have far less problems, have better morals and do not try to convince people to join them and minimise others

    I wish you the very best and pray for your rational mind to help you choose the right path to take

    Sincerely

    Mark

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  31. Mark,

    Thank you for stopping by and leaving your thoughts. To respond to your questions:


    "why are the devotees that are corresponding with you here sounding so desperate to keep your faith in the iskcon movement?"

    I didn't really get that impression. We've just been having conversations...

    "Second- do you think an external source such as a movement or other practitioners as being essential to your spiritual growth?"

    Ever since leaving organized religion I have been going solo in terms of my spiritual journey. I don't think a movement or other practitioners are essential to my spiritual growth. I believe God is within me and if I continue to pursue Him that I will discover the truth more and more. That being said, though the pursuit for understanding and truth seems to be largely a solitary one, when it comes to the idea of a practitioner or spiritual teacher, I could see how they could help direct and illuminate some of my path. I don't have one though...I just hear of other people's experiences and they seem to find them helpful.


    "Third- are you aware of other hare Krishna movements existing as well? Are you aware that iskcon tries hard to discredit these other societies and even organised Christianity, Buddhism etc?"

    I'm not aware of any other Hare Krishna movements actually...When it comes to Iskon trying to discredit other societies or religions, I haven't experienced that. Though I only visited one of their temples once and I don't have too much experience or knowledge of Iskon save for the articles and videos I have watched online.

    When I was at the temple one of the things that impressed me was the idea that was expressed of how other people have found God in other religions..That God is God and we all worship the same one. I hold that same view. One of the videos I watched online discussed how Iskon was actively involved in interfaith dialogue...You don't find a lot of fundamentalist groups involving themselves in interfaith dialogue..at least to my knowledge..

    I have to say I can't help but be perplexed at what you shared with me...It seems like we are talking about two different groups! I know there tends to be issues in any organized groups, be it secular or religious, but what you bring up is above and beyond the usual problems...

    I am going to check out the site you referenced. I'm really sorry that you had such a negative experience...I hope that you and your family are at a place of peace spiritually and moving forward prospering.

    "follow your head, not your heart,"

    No worries with that. ;) I'm always accused of following my head too much! :)

    Blessings,

    Jessica

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  32. I'm exploring my spirituality vicariously through you. I do some things on my own, but your explorations fascinate me. :) xo

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    1. Thanks for stopping by Rachel! I enjoy sharing my journey with you! ~ blessings

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  33. Reading you response Jessica..

    Your experience of iskcon is that of an outsider, if you get more involved you will experience the negative or yourself

    It cannot be denied, iskcon is dangerous, and you are peeping in the window,once you explore the inner rooms of the house you will see many things, most prominently the dust swept under the carpet

    Do a thorough search on the Internet

    Mark

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    1. Mark,

      I will be doing more research. I have to say my research has mostly involved investigating the beliefs of those in Iskon, not necessarily the infrastructure of the organization. But I will definitely look into researching the things you brings up.

      Thank you for your time and for stopping by.

      Blessings,

      Jessica

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    2. Lol, Jessica, the more you research iskcons beliefs the more you will understand that their philosophy is based on fantasy!

      Krishna is supposedly god right? He lives in a forest and has hundreds of girlfriends, cheats on his main girlfriend Radha regularly and then dumps the forest village and moves to the city and marries 16108 wives, keeps promising the villagers he will return and never does so

      So if you want a god that lets you down, then u got one!

      I would seriously investigate the lack of accountability iskcon has for the thousands of children that are still abused and the fact that despite their claims that the gita is 5000 years old, it turns out that it is under a 1000 years old according to historians

      So if you want a religion that is based on lies and cheating, so be it

      By the way, they maintain that man never went to the moon and that the moon is actually inhabited

      Highly reccomend staying away, glad I did, my sister was abused by her devotee husband a few years ago

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    3. Sandra, Thank you for stopping by.

      Perhaps I need to make a statement here. It's not as if I'm looking to join any form of organized religion anytime soon. I just recently left one!

      I went to the temple to purchase japa mala beads and then became intrigued by their religion after having a conversation with a devotee.

      My blog explores different religions, different ways to God and my own spiritual experiences and reflections. I find that the Hare Krishnas have some compelling views and beliefs and seek to understand them more fully.

      When it comes to some of what you bring up regarding Krishna, I believe one might be able to reconcile that the same way that a Christian can reconcile some of the stories in the Bible. To see them as stories expressing truths. I'm sure there are some who believe they are literal, and some who believe they are more allegory and symbolic. As with any religion...

      Thank you for stopping by and leaving yourr thoughts.

      ~ Blessings

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    4. Replying to Sandra's comments here:

      Yes, Krishna is God. Devotees may have different levels of relationship with Him: neutrally, as a servant, as a friend, as a parent, as a wife, and as a lover - each the more sweeter. Please note that our ETERNAL relationship is with God - all other relationships that we experience with other souls are transitory.

      Love of God is the true, transcendental love. The material so-called love we feel here is just a shadow of that love, and more accurately described as "lust." (Srila Prabhupada would say, "Love at first sight, divorce at first fight.") Even the most 'pure', unconditional love in this world - that of a mother for her child - is actually 'selfish' in the sense that it is only because the child is of her body (and that she has gestated it and continues to nurse it) that she has an attachment for it.

      Krishna's eternal pastimes with the Gopis are transcendental. The fact that He leaves them is so that He and They can enjoy "loving separation" - the most intense love. When you are in love with someone, do you not think of them all the time when you are not with them, and yearn to be with them once more? Again, we experience this is a minute form in our material relationships here. So the Gopis are crying for Krishna, wanting to be with Krishna. Should not this be our own attitude and prayer towards God?

      Regarding the 16,000 wives, they were kidnapped by a demon and then rescued by Krishna. Vedic scriptures state that should an unmarried woman stay away from home with another man, she is ineligible to be married to anyone else. Thus the women begged Krishna to take His shelter and to accept them as His wives, which He did.

      But here's the important point - Krishna married each of them and went to each of their homes SIMULTANEOUSLY and maintained a perfect householder life with each of them. Similarly when He danced with the Gopis in the dead of night, each Gopi thought she alone was dancing with Krishna. Because He is God He can do that! In this world a man has enough problems keeping even one wife happy, but Krishna was able to be with and maintain them all.

      All Krishna's relationships should be seen on the transcendental platform, should not be imitated, and will very likely seem incomprehensible to us.

      Actually this is why He came as Lord Rama, to play the role of the ideal prince, brother, husband and master. It is the lila and relationship of Sita and Rama that we should aspire to and take direction from.

      (continued)

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    5. (still replying to Sandra)

      As I've mentioned previously, we take child protection very seriously. Indeed, just two days ago the already-established ISKCON North America Child Protection Office launched its web site: http://news.iskcon.com/node/4361

      Regarding the age of the Vedic scriptures, it is documented that the early British Indologists DELIBERATELY made up dates for the scriptures subjectively and to further their own agenda of suppressing the Indians and diluting their heritage. The Aryan Invasion Theory is another example of this - that "civilisation" came to India from outside. There is NO evidence for this either archaeologically or from within the scriptures themselves! Indeed, there IS archaeological evidence of the battle of Kurukshektra, Krishna's sunken kingdom of Dwarka (now found off the Indian coast), as well as the presence of horse sacrifices at Mohenjo-daro. The since-dried up river bed of the Saraswati river - mentioned repeatedly in the Vedas - has also been identified by satellite imagery. Thus these archaeological and scriptural sources date Vedic civilisation back to (at least) 3300 BC.


      That we never went to the moon is of course contentious, and I will just remark in passing that we are not alone in that belief, and some of the evidence cited by the "conspiracy theorists" does seem compelling. However, what I choose to focus on is that when a devotee edited out references to the falsity of moon landings in Srila Prabhupada's books on the pretext that it would discredit the movement, Srila Prabhupada insisted they be put back in. If Srila Prabhupada was only concerned for attracting followers to some mundane movement why would he risk doing such a thing? He instead stuck to the scriptures' description of the moon, its landscape and its inhabitants, and that as a higher world (ruled by the Moon God Chandra) one can only get there after attainment of appropriate spiritual qualifications, and not by material means.


      Finally, I of course do not condone any abuse your sister suffered by her husband. Abuse sadly occurs in many relationships, whether by those of a religious nature or otherwise. As I've mentioned earlier, it is the marriage of Sita and Rama of the Ramayana that we should strive for.

      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    6. (Replying to Jessica's reply to Sandra)

      Dear Jessica,

      It was clear from my first reading of your blog post that your visit was to obtain some japa beads, but that nevertheless you enjoyed your visit, liked the devotees you met, and were interested in finding out more. It was in that mood that I and others (e.g. Sanjay) have replied, and which you have reciprocated likewise.

      I will reply to Mark's parent posts in due course as I am in the middle of something and am just replying while I have the time to do so. Needless to say I have already replied to Anonymous previously, saying no-one is forced to join or remain in ISKCON, and that our temples are open, scriptures available and class recordings too, all without any need to "join up." Indeed, Srila Prabhupada was happy for people to just visit the temple, chant and take prasadam (sanctified vegetarian food).


      As I've said in my replies to Sandra, Krishna's pastimes should be considered transcendental, and not judged or taken or imitated materially. Of course, some may take them as stories or philosophy, and yet may still gain something on that level.

      Within Christianity, some branches take the Eucharist literally, while others take it as symbolic. Indeed Jesus - if we are to 'believe' the Bible - healed the sick, raised the dead, fed the five thousand and turned water into wine. But would such things be impossible for an empowered-incarnation of the Lord (as Hare Krishnas recognise Jesus to be)?


      But if one is able to take and accept the scriptures of their religion literally, how much more amazing does God (and His earthly representatives) become, how much do we feel and become closer to Him?

      In contrast, if we minimise God and take the scriptures as stories or morals or just philosophy, then we risk drifting ever further away from him. Just look how Christmas has become 'Santa Claus' and the receiving of presents, and Easter about 'Easter' Eggs!


      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    7. " but that nevertheless you enjoyed your visit, liked the devotees you met, and were interested in finding out more. It was in that mood that I and others (e.g. Sanjay) have replied, and which you have reciprocated likewise."

      I agree. And I've enjoyed learning more through our conversations. Thank you! :)

      "Indeed Jesus - if we are to 'believe' the Bible - healed the sick, raised the dead, fed the five thousand and turned water into wine. But would such things be impossible for an empowered-incarnation of the Lord (as Hare Krishnas recognise Jesus to be)?"

      For sure, if Jesus is who the Bible said he was he would be able to do those things. I never knew the Hare Krishnas thought that way towards Jesus...I wasn't sure of their stance actually. I know some Buddhists believe Jesus was a bodhisattva (an enlightened being that compassionately refrains from entering nirvana in order to save others and is worshipped as a deity).

      I just want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly..."an empowered incarnation of the Lord"..would you be meaning like an avatar then?
      To share my stance on Jesus...I'm re-investigating him right now but I lean more towards him being a mystic, having recognized the eternal spark of God within himself and wanting to share that with others, showing them how to find "the Kingdom within."

      "But if one is able to take and accept the scriptures of their religion literally, how much more amazing does God (and His earthly representatives) become, how much do we feel and become closer to Him?"

      I no longer think the Bible is as literal as I once did. But I agree, when one does hold every word literally it has a powerful impact on one's faith and connection with God.

      "In contrast, if we minimise God and take the scriptures as stories or morals or just philosophy, then we risk drifting ever further away from him"

      'drifting ever further away from him' got my attention a bit because all that I want is to become more aware and immersed in God...and yet...I have to say that I have gone from a literal viewpoint of the Bible to a more figurative one...a view I used to criticize heavily for the very reasons you mention.

      I think this shift occurred with my continued perplexity towards God's seemingly immoral nature in the OT remained unresolved. I have issues with the Bible..oh well..I don't want to go write too much though. What is your view toward the Bible? I take it you take the Vedic scriptures literally..do you take the Bible or parts of the Bible literally too?..Just wondering.

      Thanks again. :)

      Hare Krishna,

      Jessica

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    8. Dear Jessica,

      "I just want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly..."an empowered incarnation of the Lord"..would you be meaning like an avatar then?"

      Yes, although a specific type. The exact Sanskrit technical term for this type is "saktyavesa-avatara."

      yadā yadā hi dharmasya
      glānir bhavati bhārata
      abhyutthānam adharmasya
      tadātmānaḿ sṛjāmy aham

      "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion — at that time I descend Myself." - Bhagavad Gita 4.7

      Srila Prabhupada remarks in his commentary to this verse: "Sometimes He descends personally, and sometimes He sends His bona fide representative in the form of His son, or servant, or Himself in some disguised form."


      "I think this shift occurred with my continued perplexity towards God's seemingly immoral nature in the OT remained unresolved. I have issues with the Bible..oh well..I don't want to go write too much though. What is your view toward the Bible? I take it you take the Vedic scriptures literally..do you take the Bible or parts of the Bible literally too?..Just wondering."

      Yes, I take the Vedic scriptures literally. Even within the Vedic literature Krishna comes in various forms - Krishna, Rama, Vamana, Nrsimha... All in different forms for different purposes, or to teach different lessons, or to allow one to make a connection (relationship) with Him in that particular form.

      So if God had one sort of temperament in the OT and Jesus another, then that was how He wanted to appear and teach in those times to those peoples.

      paritrāṇāya sādhūnāḿ
      vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām
      dharma-saḿsthāpanārthāya
      sambhavāmi yuge yuge

      "To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium." - Bg 4.8

      We've just celebrated the appearance day of Lord Nrsimha - a half-man, half-lion avatar, who came to rescue his devotee Prahlad from his demoniac father. Actually the father was originally a devotee, one of the doorkeepers to the spiritual world. However, after making a mistake and offending some pure devotees, Krishna sentenced him to take birth three times as a demon, thus quickly burning up the grave sin he had committed.

      Lord Nrsimhadeva ripped open the abdomen of the demon father, in what outsiders often think is a very grim depiction. But when the Lord personal kills [a demon] or is even personally present at the death of anyone, then they are immediately liberated. Further, Prahlad, on being asked to be given a boon by Lord Nrsimhadeva, asked nothing for himself, but rather that his father be (completely) forgiven.

      We use the analogy of a mother lioness - her jaws can either be used to tear prey apart, or those same sharp teeth can pick up her cub by the scruff of the neck and lovingly carry it.

      (continued)

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    9. An aunt of mine once asked her vicar about the apparent longevity of people given in the early parts of the Bible. He didn't have an answer for her question. However, Vedic cosmology says that there are four on-going cosmological ages, each decreasing in religiosity, and human lifetime decreasing in each too. We're in the fourth and darkest age right now (Kali Yuga), and lifetimes are only about 100 years on this planet. In the previous ages human lifespan would be 1,000, 10,000 and 100,000 years respectively (working backwards for each age). Thus the earlier parts of the Bible can be reconciled in Vedic terms by understanding they took part in previous ages, and thus can be taken literally.

      (Similarly, lifespans of the beings in the higher material planets are longer than ours. Thus in the Bible God could very well have created the universe in seven "days", but they would be relative to Him, not us. Thus the seven-day creation in the Bible can be reconciled with the age of the universe as reckoned by modern scientists.)

      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    10. Hello David,

      When you cited the Bhagavad Gita Chapter four verse seven I was immediately brought back to the first time I read those verses. They are said a little different in my translation, but the meaning remains the same in both. When I had read those verses immediately I had thought of Jesus! I remember noting those verses down in my journal for further reflection, wondering if Jesus could be an avatar then...Would you think that even maybe the Buddha and Muhammad could be individuals of which those verses speak?

      "Srila Prabhupada remarks in his commentary to this verse: "Sometimes He descends personally, and sometimes He sends His bona fide representative in the form of His son, or servant, or Himself in some disguised form.""

      To me the idea of God, if He is personal, coming down either Himself or using someone else, to help restore, correct, or guide humanity makes sense. And it would make sense that He would do this in various forms and locations in order to reach people in ways that they would understand and would relate to their given cultures and worldviews.

      "So if God had one sort of temperament in the OT and Jesus another, then that was how He wanted to appear and teach in those times to those peoples."

      I think that could mean one of either two things. Either people interpreted God differently because of their worldviews...So in a war-like society, man perceived God to be war-like (like in the OT) and in a society that progressed a bit into higher levels of compassion they would perceive God to be more loving, forgiving, compassionate (NT). This explanation would mean that God Himself didn't change, just the way people viewed Him did.

      ...Or God Himself did, indeed, choose to appear one way and then the other in order to reach the people that lived during those times. He intentionally was one way in the OT and another way in the NT. Intentionally seeking to reach people more effectively in each time period in ways that they could relate and understand most.

      In the first scenario God doesn't change, just people's perceptions of Him, and the second one God changes. I hope that made sense! ;)

      "Thus in the Bible God could very well have created the universe in seven "days", but they would be relative to Him, not us"

      I think that's a very reasonable conclusion.

      Thanks so much! :)

      Hare Krishna,
      Jessica

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    11. "Would you think that even maybe the Buddha and Muhammad could be individuals of which those verses speak?"

      "Sometimes Sri Krsna descends Himself, and sometimes He sends His representative. The major religions of the world-Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and Moslem-believe in some supreme authority or personality coming down from the kingdom of God. In the Christian religion, Jesus Christ claimed to be the son of God and to be coming from the kingdom of God to reclaim conditioned souls. As followers of Bhagavad-gita, we admit this claim to be true. So basically there is no difference of opinion. In details there may be differences due to differences in culture, climate and people, but the basic principle remains the same-that is, God or His representatives come to reclaim conditioned souls."
      - Srila Prabhupada, Raja Vidya Chapter 6: Knowledge of Krsna's Appearance and Activities

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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    12. "In the Christian religion, Jesus Christ claimed to be the son of God and to be coming from the kingdom of God to reclaim conditioned souls. As followers of Bhagavad-gita, we admit this claim to be true."

      My theory on Jesus was that he was perhaps an enlightened person that taught us to discover God, or the Kingdom, within ourselves. To shed ourselves of our egos, of the temporary, so that we could discover the eternal. Do Hare Krishnas believe in the literal resurrection? I'm just wondering...

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    13. "Do Hare Krishnas believe in the literal resurrection? I'm just wondering..."

      Just to clear up any possible confusion, we don't "follow" the Bible as such, and we're not a syncretistic faith either. Rather, we follow our own scriptures, but can recognise correspondences to other religions, and accept that the teachings of those other religions can also be valid paths to God for those that follow them.

      However, I've found that the Vedic scriptures are pretty much all-encompassing in and of themselves!


      So regarding your exact question, I/we don't really have a "position" as such.

      However, reincarnation covers the transmigration of the soul through DIFFERENT bodies, so why would the soul effectively re-entering (resurrecting) the SAME body be anything different or unbelievable?

      There's actually a side story in one of our scriptures where a mother and father are so devastated on the death of their son that his soul is brought back into his body again to speak to them. He is told they are his mother and father, to which he replies "in which life were they my mother and father?" The father and mother then realise the futility of attachment on the bodily platform.

      With best wishes,

      Hare Krishna,

      David.

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  34. Thank you, dear Jessica, for this wonderful post! I myself got drawn towards Krishna when I started reading my Indian friend Mohinee Puranik's blog 'Gurukrupa' and now I am completely in love with Krishna. I would like to be His 'Radha' or at least one of His 'milkmaids'. I don't know and wouldn't like to know about this ritual of chanting God's name and counting how any times you take His name. I don't want to belong to any sect like ISKON and all that. i'd like to love Krishna on personal level, just He and me. why count how many times you take His name when His name is sounded with your every breath? I have drawn a picture of Him and I talk to that picture. I don't and will never go to His temple. I don't believe that god resides in such places built by us. His real abode is your heart.
    -Portia Burton

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    1. Thank you for stopping by Portia. Your connection with God sounds beautiful. It's not necessarily about "counting" how many times you say God's name, it's more a meditative practice....and to engage in chanting with the japa beads reserves aside a specific time to practice one's mantra repetition.

      I agree wholeheartedly about God abiding in our hearts. One needs only to seek within to discover Him.

      ~ Blessings

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    2. Thank you, dear Jessica. You are a loving soul.
      -Portia

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  35. Hi Jessica:
    Love that you're exploring more of what God is you are certainly right when you say:
    One belief that I really appreciated that Jiva expressed was the fact that everyone is worshiping the same God. No matter what religion one ascribes to, no matter what packaging one's beliefs are wrapped in, what lies at the core is all the same.

    I also believe that VERY SAME thing.
    God is everywhere.
    God is everything.

    We simply have to search him out. I like that you're continuing to search.
    --
    Chris

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  36. Thanks Chris, It's always great when you stop by. :)

    "I like that you're continuing to search."

    It never ends really, does it? :)

    ~ Blessings

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  37. Jessica interesting threads of comments... Each one of us has our interpretations of god, divine, high energy.... and how we connect with it is an individual practice or experience. Nice to explore all the religions that surround us but the final choice rest on the individual...
    I do not believe that groups from other religions should make your choice nor should they enforce they reasons on you...
    For me the Divine belongs to all and he sees all...
    I am curious as to why religious groups are formed and for whose benefits?

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    1. Thank you so much Savira for your reflections...

      "Nice to explore all the religions that surround us but the final choice rest on the individual.."

      I agree! :)

      As to why religious groups are formed...Well, I think it's natural that people seek out others with like minds and hearts. If you look at any interest anyone could possibly be interested in there's a group somewhere organized for those who are interested in that same thing to gather. It could be a knitters circle , a gun club, a meditation group, a mother's group..etc..etc. I think religious organizations can be a natural thing and as long as they are edifying to those who participate, I don't see the harm.

      The harm comes, I think, when any group or religion thinks themselves the "only way" and because of that acts with intolerance towards other groups. That's when problems arise.

      ~ Blessings

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  38. This is very exciting and I'm looking forward to hearing more. I don't know much about the Hare Krishnas at all. I admire your spiritual curiosity. Thanks for sharing your discoveries with us.

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    1. Thank you Sweepy!

      I'm looking forward to writing more about the Hare Krishnas as I plan on attending one of their services in the near future and reading some of their books.

      Thanks for coming along on my journey. :)

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  39. ... wow ~this is really neat; I'm looking forward to your next post. I think it is awesome that you are so open minded and willing to explore different religions... what an excellent example for open mindedness and willingness you are setting for your children!

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    1. Thank you so much Amy! Some haven't seen it that way but I really see that to be true. That's important to teach our children to have open, yet critical thinking minds and to dig deep for truth.
      ~ blessings

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  40. Dear Jessica, wow, you got some response on this one. I can see there are some who are totally discouraging you, talking about Krishna having many wives. We have all read the story of Krishna but if you go into the depth of it there is so much more to it that relates to our society and not Krishna and his flirtatious nature. It is absorbing things in the right perspective that matters. Every religion or cult has its good and bad so take anything with a clear head. We all tend to get floored by such things. Iskon has its good as well as bad, just get the good out of it. Reading your post I felt like I was in an Iskon temple. There is a huge one here that I have visited and it was a beautiful experience. I hope your experience of japa malas has an positive effect in your life. I really admire for your openness about god and religion. I truly believe there is only one supreme head and religions are different means to get close to him. Looking forward to more of this. I wish you would come to India and visit some of the temples here. Love always

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    1. Rimly, I loved your comment!

      I think it's so awesome that you have a temple that big by you. I bet it's beautiful! I'm glad you had a beautiful experience there. :)

      "I truly believe there is only one supreme head and religions are different means to get close to him."

      I agree!

      I wish I could come to India and visit some of the temples there too! India is number one on my list if I ever find a discarded winning lottery ticket! :)

      ~ blessings and love

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  41. Very cool... Keep writing...
    Om Shanti Shanti

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    1. Thank you so much for stopping by. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
      ~ namaste

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  42. Hare Krishna,
    This reminds me of my first visit to the Hare Krishna temple in London. I too was worried at first having come from a christian/ jewish background - everything seemed in opposition to what id been taught about God. But I went back and the more time I spent there the more I realised what a beautifull and truthfull path it is. I wish that more people could get past the stereotypes of white hippies trying to be indian and realise that though.

    4 years later and ive been a devotee since that first visit, and i count my blessings every time i pick up my japa beads ... The one thing i would say is that you should feel free to keep going back. We preach yes - but we never force our beliefs on any one - and i know plenty of people in my temple who arent devotees and who dont really subscribe to most of the beliefs - but who are just as much a part of the community because they are free to come and explore spiritualilty and spiritual life, or even just sit in the temple and soak up the atmosphere without any pressure to convert.

    ive noticed that the one thing people seem to remember about devotees is that - apart from the strange clothing - we are friendly and welcoming and im so glad that was your experiance. Spirituality should be fun and beautifull, and we should welcome anyone that wants to taste it .. Im so happy that you enjoyed your time at the temple and I really hope youll go back... hare krishna :)

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    1. Channah,

      Thank you so much for sharing your experience here! And for your encouraging words!

      "We preach yes - but we never force our beliefs on any one"

      I really enjoyed hearing what Jiva had to say about her beliefs and never felt like she was pressuring me in any way or seeking agreement. I am planning on going back to visit during a Sunday service. I've never experienced chanting with others and would love to see what that is like. Additionally, I know they have Bhagavad Gita studies on Sundays too, that's a book I've read on my own, I'd love to get other people's views on some of what it brings up.

      Thanks again!

      Hare Krishna :)

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  43. I just loved this post Jessica! Especially because I had a very similar and wonderful experience (which incidentally I ended up writing about: http://theaspiringchanter.blogspot.ca/2008/10/losing-my-heart-in-hartford.html) as well! It seems we're somehow connected! LOL!

    Jiva is such a wonderful person. She's so warm-hearted, down to earth and is actually a very deep practitioner of bhakti. But what's so special about her is the fact that she can convey her depth with such ease and never makes you feel intimidated. I'm so glad that you got to meet her. To me, she's not just a role-model but a saint! :D

    Hare Krsna!
    Vrndavana

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    1. So glad you enjoyed this post Vrndavana! How neat that we both wrote posts on the East Hartford temple! It has been great connecting with you via our blogs!

      I agree, Jiva is such a warm and encouraging person. She has a vast depth of knowledge, and her devotion is truly inspiring. I've enjoyed every visit I have made there. :)

      Hare Krishna!

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  44. Great post Jessica. I have been to the Iskon temple in Mumbai and it is very nice.
    In the end I believe that the way to God is joy. You will know in every fibre of your being the form of God that brings you joy, that brings you peace, that eliminates fear, when you can feel his love envelope you, when your heart opens up as wide as the world - then you will know that you have found the way to Him.
    It doesn't matter what form you worship Him in, for all paths lead to Him.
    Namaste and Blessings to you
    Om Namah Shivaya, Hare Rama, Hare Krishna.

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